vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
124525-what-i-demand-for-halloween
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. | |} ---- ---- they did, but that should maybe kinda mean we do get the halloween event this year | |} ---- I'll see if I can't find it just for posterity's sake. Here's hoping! Carbine is really kicking ass. | |} ---- ---- The whole "Oh, we can't, we're fixing bugs" will never end because this is an MMO. More bug fixes plz. | |} ---- And yet, other games manage to fix bugs and have holidays at the same time. So the whole "we can't, we're fixing bugs" thing can in fact end and it's high time that our players stopped pretending otherwise. | |} ---- Take it easy, yasfan. I wasn't completely serious. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Because we're all recluses who would rather spend holidays with our online community than with half-strangers we humor for social requirement's sake. '3' /s? Plus, Carbine said they're going to put a heavy WS spin on the holidays so it's not just The Caretaker in a Santa hat. | |} ---- ---- I have to be honest here, I've never understood the "it breaks immersion" argument when a game is peppered with Easter Eggs and references to things from the real world. | |} ---- ---- I didn't mean Easter holiday eggs. I meant Easter Egg: an unexpected or undocumented feature in a piece of computer software or on a DVD, included as a joke or a bonus. :unsure: | |} ---- ---- Well yea, but they're directly related to real world stuff. So why are those OK, but not holidays? Granted, most games work the holidays into the lore and make them fit, but even with that people don't want them because immersion. So why do the holidays break immersion but not the Easter Eggs/real world references? General questions, not to you specifically :P | |} ---- Like what? I seem to recall Vic having a similar argument, that "Galerade" is so obviously "Gatorade" that we all recognize it for what it is. Except that what it is is "Galerade" and not "Gatorade". We all recognize it as a Gatorade-like product that isn't literally the Earth product--it's close enough that we recognize the motif but not so close that they're claiming an Earth product exists on Nexus. That's why it's not immersion-breaking. It's close enough to evoke the concept through pattern completion, without literally being the same thing. Similarly, we can all recognize Shade's Eve as a Halloween-like holiday that is not actually Halloween. It's why they wouldn't ever call a red hat with white trim a "Santa" hat even if it was obviously similar to the kind of hat worn by the jolly old elf. A spring holiday on Wildstar that includes the Loppenok--an augmented Lopp/Ravenok hybrid who hops all over Nexus laying shiny eggs that must be collected before they hatch into random zone-appropriate mobs--would be a recognizably Easter-like motif with a distinctly Wildstar spin. | |} ---- ---- There's references the taxi driver makes to "Back to the Future", I've seen references to songs/albums(Rush's 2112, "We built this city on rock and roll", the karaoke quest in Malgrave, "Who's that lady"), there's a GoT reference in Ellevar(something about a song of ice and water, it's been a while since I've seen it, the book series GoT is based on is called "A Song of Ice and Fire"). Nurton and Kaffee. https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/88307-references-and-easter-eggs/ All I'm saying is that there are obvious references to real world things all over this game. Yes, I know some are reworked to fit in to W*, but so are the holidays reworked to fit in to W*. So why are the holidays a no-no but not the Easter Eggs and references spread out all over the place? If people can suspend their reality to accept the references and Easter Eggs because they've been slightly altered to fit the game, so why is it so hard for them to do for the holidays when they've been slightly altered to fit the game? | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Honestly... I'm of much the same mind. I'm not averse to there being holidays, but having them magically align in theme with "Sol - Earth - North America/European - JudeoChristian" holidays has felt kind of dumb in every single MMO I've ever played. I know there's an automatic sense of rapport they can leverage with some folks, but I prefer originality. ThaydFest is pretty amazing honestly. That feels less contrived somehow. The Exiles getting together to say "Hey we kicked ass on this forsaken planet for another six months. Hooray, let's dance." feels emergent and alive than some pantomime of "Winter Festival N+1" or "Here's some Spooky Lore - OOOooh". Also, probably really earning my curmudgeon badge here, but they inevitably get little achievements tied to them. And then you get WoW who says "Oh hey let's tie all these holidays into a meta achievement with a really great reward" and you feel like a !@#$ for ignoring them and then it's going to take a year to catch up. And I kind of hate that. So, I guess if I were designing things, trying to make holiday lovers and holday humbugs like myself happy, I'd try to go for * 100% Lore Centric * Costumery or Trinket or Toy rewards * Minor achievement with no intention of ever making it a big thing * Maybe align with NA holiday schedule where there's some expectation where people might get time off work, but that's mainly just Christmas so scatter Wildstar holidays around the calendar for LORE reasons, and not real world reasons. * Make sure PvE and PvP stay separate because it inevitably causes a metric ton of complaints because of the potential of that "meta" thing and the two playerbases and game modes aren't always compatible. | |} ---- ---- Fixt that for ya. :lol: | |} ---- ---- Hey, no worries and always glad to have been a help. I drooled as each of those stories came out and bookmarked them for future reference. I think I speak for most of us when I say SHADE'S EVE SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE! :D | |} ---- Holidays in MMOs are something I've always had a problem with, going back to WoW, and it has nothing to do with importing real world holidays into a fictional universe. My criticism is much simpler than that: Why do game developers use time and resources on weak content that only appears once a year? I understand the psychological argument, I just don't understand why a developer would want to create limited access content in a game genre that is often critically defined by how much endgame it offers. If it takes you folks three months of advance just to get this Shades' Eve done, why bother? There are plenty of fixes and updates that would be substantially more beneficial to the game right now (imo as random internet guy, obviously ;) ). I suppose that holiday content has always seemed like a gimmick to me. It doesn't offer much in terms of gameplay or sustainability, it just pulls at the heartstrings of players who actually care about these holidays... which are mostly empty of any cultural relevance now anyway. :mellow: | |} ---- Bingo! This is why I like that they've given a nod to the consumerism that is Christmas, it's a unique play. I just don't want to see poorly designed Facebook style mini-games and weak quests and short-lived gimmicky rewards handed out in an attempt to appeal to gamers' uh... 'seasonal energy'. :( | |} ---- Because it's fun and gaming should be fun? :huh: I don't look on *any* content that I enjoy as "weak." Temporary events also make a game world feel like a living, breathing thing, y'know? Nexus is pretty static outside of the players themselves. I've captured that Dominion Airman outside of Thayd countless times. He's always there. He never moves. Next time I go that way guess what? He'll still be there. But when a holiday comes to town, the decorations go up, new quest givers appear, things look DIFFERENT - and in a few days, things go back to the same-old, same-old. And Caydiem explained the rationale behind tying them to real world holidays. I know, I know, Nexus isn't Earth ... but you know when I have extra time to dedicate to video game events? Christmas break, Spring break, the long 4th of July weekend, Thanksgiving weekend, Easter, etc. | |} ---- It's weak because there's little gameplay value in holiday content. Easy quests, generally requiring no effort or learning, and often gimmicky like the Simon Memory design. :P You might think it's great because it's 'fun', but sadly, there is no objective measure for 'fun'. Some people think Candy Crush Saga is fun. I still don't want to see that crap in WS. ^_^ I don't think a bit of short-lived environmental change justifies the obviously long process required to produce this content, or the time it takes away from QA. It reeks of Western holiday sentimentalism and I also don't see that as justification for months of preparation. :( | |} ---- ---- A good criticism, and one I'll happily talk about. You have to strike a balance. Focusing primarily on limited-time events is a rough gig, and not something you should do unless your entire game and content pipeline has been based around that concept. For an MMO like WildStar, it's very important to deliver content that's available year-round -- and, I'll point out, that's a focus we shifted to last year when it became apparent our skills were needed on other projects. Shade's Eve was (rightly) deemed less important than shoring up content throughout the game, particularly at the elder game. My crew happily worked on getting veteran shiphands out the door as well as a huge number of other key tasks to making the game better no matter the time of year. However, metrics have shown that players look forward to limited-time events. This sort of content brings back people who haven't played in a while and also lends new visibility to the game. There is definitely something to changing the world and what content is available for a certain space of time. It's not worth it to focus on the content to the extreme, but it is worth it to focus on it as a deliverable feature. The benefits are enough. It's a front-loaded cost; you spend the most time creating the event for the first year (or space of time), but in subsequent years, you only have to spend time on maintenance and adding a few new things. The bulk of the work is already done. The content is always new to at least a percentage of your playerbase every year, and people who want to get the most out of the holiday or the rewards it provides will look forward to its coming. As to this: Now, you haven't experienced our holidays yet. As I mentioned earlier, we did a smidge more than just slappin' down a couple of dailies and calling it good. I think we're bringing a decent amount of content in this... instance. ;) | |} ---- Caydiem: YAY! Thanks! *hits the unseen like button* D'aww Tex ya old softie :wub: Esper ya old Scrooge :ph34r: (just kidding) | |} ---- Wonder if it's a holiday instance? That would be awesome. I can just picture us having to smash through pumpkins to get to the main boss - the big bad pumpkin necromancer. Or having to send the evil reindeer back to the good Santa on our way to kill the evil Santa impersonator - a protostar guy who thinks money is worth all this evil and wants to take over Winterfest. Okay so my imagination got away with me. LOL. | |} ---- This is basically what I was probing to get, that holiday content is real life fan-service. It's not a huge deal but that's something I can't get on board with unless the gameplay is solid. But across my experiences it rarely has been, especially with WoW's holiday events, which I considered pure fluff. And I'm just not a fan of fluff in MMOs. :( This goes back to what I just mentioned. And I can understand appealing to your audience, even if I don't like the direction sometimes.So that said, I'm not trying to make any judgements about Shades' Eve or anything Wildstar has prepared. I'm wary because of what I've seen in other games (again, primarily WoW), but I'm going to try what WS offers. Trust me, if there's decor of any kind you can expect to see me lurking at all of the events . :ph34r: | |} ---- The beauty of a game like this is that it offers a plethora of things for people to enjoy. No one is forced to do anything. If you don't like an aspect of the game, don't engage in it. I don't like housing. I snort with disgust any time I have a decor item loot drop(well, except plushies, because PLUSHIES), because that's just something that adds to the loot table and takes away my chance to get "better" loot. I could say "But this silly fluff just takes away resources from the aspects of the game I want to play and enjoy playing!". Other than a place to soak up rested XP(which you can get in the city, though not as quickly) and some mini-games to play, IMNSHO housing serves no purpose and is weak. But there are a ton of people that will vehemently disagree with me. I don't have fun with it. As you say, there is no objective measure for fun, I don't find housing fun, and even though others do, I don't want to see that crap in the game. So why should something that's not fun for me be in the game, taking away resources for what I do find fun? And you can try to convince me all you want that housing holds a lot of value, but the simple truth is, I don't like it so it doesn't hold value to me. In all seriousness though, I don't think housing should be taken out, I'm just using that as an example to show a different perspective of what you're saying. You don't like it, so it shouldn't be there, regardless of the people that do like it and want it there. That's kinda :blink: , don't you think? | |} ---- Hey, I don't hate Western sentimentalism! Or holidays, really. I've just got this instinctual dislike for lite game design in MMOs. :lol: | |} ---- Let's face it, if we were trying to be definitively realistic, the idea of a "year" probably wouldn't be 365 days anywhere else. I mean, even ignoring all the glaring references to Earth culture, just sheer mechanics mean you'll have to sort of have that kind of weird timely coincidence. I do think it's hilarious to think of Christmas in Wildstar actually being an abstract commentary of consumer culture. I really hope they do that angle to death. Wildstar's at its best when it's commenting on Earth culture. Protostar itself resounds with many of us in a very bitter way because a great many of us had those kinds of jobs... | |} ---- ---- :P To be real Esper, on some weird level I agree with you but my 'dislike' of these things is skewed towards the players not the developers. Things like: say there were presents on the ground or maybe pumpkins to pick up, out in the questing areas that give some little things like buffs or a 0.5% chance of...gold or armor or a weapon, whatever, I hate just hate to see level capped player looting all the *things* in the lowbie areas because it's easy and they can one shot mobs. :angry: | |} ---- I will do terrible things for the halloween orange dye. I want it. I need it. I have to have it. I'll buy it. I'll steal it. I'll farm it. I'll stab someone for-- -- I'll farm it. What's sad is that a few major studios use Concurrency as a metric, which is just "how many players logged in today." That's great if you put out new stuff a lot, even if it's crappy stuff... but it doesn't reflect on the content or the playability. I'm glad you guys don't follow that ideal. | |} ---- ---- My position is more than that, but I used some strong words so I can understand it ruffling feathers. :P Sorry for that! Simply put, my view on MMO holiday content I've experienced is that it's poorly designed gameplay, there's little challenge or room to improve and it usually involves gimmicky mini-game designs. Housing on the other hand is quite well made by any objective standard. You might not think it's fun, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that it's poorly designed. We're still dealing with a certain amount of subjectivity, of course. But if we look at Shiphands as an example of Wildstar's easier content, I find them quite well designed, even if I don't necessarily have the most fun while running them at this point, and wouldn't choose to make shiphands my reason to play. (Running with this, V. Shiphands have the added gameplay value of giving baseline rewards like gold and renown in significant quantities for solo players, so they facilitate the function of the whole game.) Know what I mean? | |} ---- ---- Haven't had the time to work on spring shenanigans, alas. As I said, the first holiday should be Shade's Eve, which is in the fall. :) | |} ---- While that does bum me out (woulda been awesome for The Drunken Boulder!), I bow down before your greater design wisdom. I'm looking forward to what you got for us come October :) | |} ---- and what are you working on ? most of what i am seeing coming out is basically what was suppose to come out a few months after launch but that is now being spread over 3 years instead. | |} ---- Well, you may have noticed the capital city thread I posted a while ago, for example. That generated a good list of feedback, which turned into action items with varying priorities. I'm working on the stuff we can knock out quickly. I am also working on other various improvements to the game that will affect the game 24/7, rather than a limited-time event. As I mention earlier in the thread, limited-time events are great, but you do need to focus on your game as a whole. I may be in charge of holidays but that does not mean it is my sole job. I have a whole slew of responsibilities (shiphands, capital cities, helping out with quest content, etc.) that keep me busy day in and day out. This includes both bug fixing, working on improvements to existing content, and working on new things coming down the pipe. "The devs are listening" has been a mantra for us for some time, and I like to think we practice what we preach. We don't have infinite developers on staff, so when we need to (rightfully!) react to player feedback on a given topic, that means other projects get pushed out a bit from time to time. It's the reality of game development. | |} ---- Wouldn't those people not have cancelled their subscription? | |} ---- 10 day trial. More people need to understand that one dev working on one thing does not mean that's all they're working on. This is also why it's so dangerous to demand the devs shift their focus onto other things; they're stretched thin 24/7. Thanks for all your hard work, Cay. Edit: Oops. Can I have a mod merge these 2 posts? >_< | |} ---- Some might have used them already, might be a nice idea to have a free day for everyone that has an account. | |} ---- Just be better at it than SquareEnix. | |} ---- ---- ---- your weak content that only appears once a year is my value added content that makes the game world come to life and feel more like a world. In every game I look forward to each and every holiday event | |} ---- ---- ---- It breaks up the same ol' same ol'. Gives people something new to look forward to they can be assured of each year. Calling WS's holidays weak is a bit jumping the gun, though. None of us have seen them, and Carbine seems pretty proud of what they will be. | |} ---- Keep in mind that I was calling holiday content weak, a judgement made mostly through my experiences with WoW (which I acknowledged). I didn't specifically say WS's holiday content is going to suck... I'm just hoping it won't be like the holiday content I've seen in every other MMO. :P | |} ---- Heh, yeah, you opened up a can of worms with that assertion, didn't ya? :lol: | |} ---- I'll admit my own humbug nature is almost entirely derived from how WoW treated holiday stuff over the years (and a tiny bit from GW2). I think the tide turned when they added achievements for it. Turned from something that was "hey yeah it's kind of cute having my orphan and showing them Outlands" to "There's an achievement for this? For doing all the end pets? (3 years worth)". Left a bad taste in my mouth, and this coming from someone who actually did complete "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been". | |} ---- Yea, I knew when I wrote the first few posts they'd be unpopular. I'm used to that, and living in a straight-edge hockey-obssessed political city as a sports-averse political skeptic pseudo-art guy has made me OK with having unpopular opinions. So I stand by the argument (though Caydiem has given valuable insight), but should have used milder language and kept the disdain locked up. -_- | |} ---- Hey! As a left-leaning, liberal Democrat who lives in Texas, I totally know those feels. :lol: | |} ---- Oh my gosh, I'm not alone. <3 | |} ----